View source for MailVsEmail


I forgot to pay my ISP bill. My dialup access was disabled automatically without warning.

My email account was disabled also. No webMail access.

I do all of my bill paying online. Without web access I am hosed.

My ISP gave me an extension :)

I tried to imagine if the US postal service was able to do the same.

The US Postal service is regulated by federal law and mandated to stop at your delivery location (home or box) six days a weak. I hardly send out mail any more. I don't pay them a dime for the junk I get, yet the mailman will always come.

Not UPS, not [[FedEx]] but only the USPS is mandated to great you daily in some way. With the exceptions of Sunday and holidays.

Email can shut down anytime for any reason. Web pages can shut down any time for any reason. Yet I do just about all of my bill paying and other official business stuff using the Internet.

I would like to believe in a free Internet. The spam war may have been won. but I think we still need an official Internet for official business. One that will not shut down when you forget to pay for it.

end rant [[KaJoTra]]
----
Welcome to Capitalism.

Some options you seem to have overlooked in your rant:
* You could have gone to your public library. Many offer free internet access.
* You could have gone to your local university. Sometimes, they offer free internet access.
* You could have used one of the free internet access services. They are still kicking around. They do tons of pop ups saying "upgrade to our low pay service====" and other ads, and cut you off after 20 minutes to 45 minutes.
====
* You could have gone to a Star Bucks or [[McDonald]]'s or [[BorderBooks]].com or some other retailer that provides either free internet access (via wireless hotspot) or for a minor fee.
* You could have gone to a cyber-cafe and paid a small fee to use their internet access.
* You could move to a city that provides free internet access (via wireless or other services).
* You could get a job with a company that provides "reasonable" personal usage of the internet using their internet access.

It sounds like you want the government to make sure you always have internet access. For that to happen, it would tax all workers, and then subsidized some sub-standard national provider (or sub-standard local providers across the nation). That's not something I am for in the slightest. For shame on you==== Do you want the government to provide you basic food and '''very''' basic healthcare and take all the fruits of your labor? Think carefully. The government cannot do anything without taking it away from people before it can give it to others.
====

--StarPilot

----
My rant is that I am depending too much on access. All of those places you mentioned are more then 30 miles from me. The one public library is not opened non-business hours, that would be when I am not working. My rant is you get cut off with out warning even if you have been a good customer for 8 years. My rant is my email was reset, the email address which I have had for 8 years. I have lost emails that could have been official business. My rant is that the internet is not as reliable as I wish it was. The mail is not reliable either, but the internet should be more reliable. Its not. But I do have good drinking water.

As for the fruit of our labor, there will always be taxes. There will always be wasted government spending. There will always be the greed of corporations enacting the mandating of services by law with reasons of illusionary benefits for social wellbeing. We dont need the government to mess us up. We have insurance companies.  But thats another story.

--KaJoTra

----
Your rant is that you are an idiot? That you assumed that you owned a service that you were in fact renting? That is how you are coming off. "I screwed up==== I'm mad about it! Why didn't the Texas Dino Rescue Rangers come to my aid and stop this!".
====

What's 30 miles? To people that drive 100 miles a day to go to work, 30 miles is nothing. To someone that has to walk to go anywhere, and there is no local public transportation, that is a very big deal. So you screwed up, and you have to take some time out of your day to fix it. Hey, mistakes happen. We all make them. We all have bad days. That's part of life. Without bad days, there would be no way to know you are having a good day.

Getting mad because your provider chopped you off? Then take precautions. Pay for several months access up front. If it is that important to you, then make sure they won't just chop you off cause there is a small snafu with the funds getting into their account. Unless you are on the financial edge, this shouldn't be a big deal to you.

Lost emails? You should have backed them up if they were important to you. Your provider might get all their servers and their backups seized by the FBI (this actually happens occasionally). Then where would you be? Even madder.

I'm sorry you are upset. But it seems like you should stop trying to find some generic force that should have came to your rescue to protect you from your own decisions. If that is what you are after, find a very competent wife to take care of you and run your life.

There won't always be taxes. There have been plenty of times in human history, in human civilization, that there were not taxes. Taxes are just a way for a minority of people to take away what is yours and use it how they choose, rather then how [[WE]] choose, and for you to accept it peacefully, rather then protest. If I came by every week and took away 25% of your pay, you'd call that robbery. Let the local thugs do it, you call it "taxes" and say that's the price of life.

This site is dedicated to the concept that no significantly sized group can do things right or well. If you haven't noticed. ;-) It is also dedicated to how to improve the number of humans you can put into a group before [[CollectiveStupidity]] overcomes the [[CollectiveIntelligence|Combined Intelligence|]].

I understand that you are upset. I just hope you turn the experience into a positive effect. Maintain multiple good backups. Keep ahead of your ISP bill if you depend on it that much. And whatever else you can think of. Good luck====
====

--StarPilot
----
Luck, ya I need all the luck I can get, I choose to live were I do cause I don't want to waste my time in traffic.


Taxes??. I get paid from the government, and you do also. We both work for the government. The government already pays for an official business email address for me. I am quite sure you have an official government email address also. Oh my god.  Email that is paid for by our tax dollars. Though we cant use in for our personal business. That would be a crime and we would go to jail. Oh my god. Email that is heavy controlled.

So we already have and are already paying for it, though we are not aloud to use it.
I am quite sure the way email is implemented. by individual agencies which create there own wheel of official email policies, cost us the tax payer a great deal more then if official email  was consolidated like the mail is with the USPS. No entity would control email as a whole, but official personal business email would have more clout as an official way of doing business.

Reduced engineering.
Reduced engineering costs.
Reduced security costs.
More money for the tax payer.

--KaJoTra
----

You are correct. I have several official email addresses. However, the reason they are regulated in what I can use them for is to protect my Agency from getting into trouble. If I start using them to distribute "Just Turned Legal in Russia Teen Nudes" jpegs to all that ask for it on the internet, my Agency would be on the hook for the consequences (and that would be distributing child porn in many nations). If I start using my official email address for a personal business, it would look like NASA is buying and selling such. Again, if I start distributing "White people are so dumb" jokes by email, NASA would look like it endorses racism. Therefore, NASA has decided to limit how I use anything that has the NASA.Gov in its naming, or reverse naming. It's NASA's equipment, therefore its NASA's decision. You know as well as I, that all .Gov addresses have similar rules, for similar reasons.

There is another principle at work though... if NASA allowed such, I would be STEALING MONEY from the taxpayers every time I used my NASA accounts for my own personal activities. Indeed, that's the reason you cannot run a business from your government cube. You are using tax payer money for non-related work.

Remember, that democracies usually fall because the participants start taking too much money from the others in a democracy to use for their own reasons. Your idea... "THE GOVMINT SHOULD GIVE ME EMAIL====" is just wasting my money. Enough of my money is already wasted on things like [[SocialInsecurity]], which I'll never see a dollar out of. I have no desire to fund teenagers getting porn and various stolen media and software on their government provided email. I have no desire to pay for the machines to host and pass through all that porn and stolen media and software. And you know that is what happens in any unregulated network. If NASA provided "free" email accounts to all for whatever they want, items that did not have any official "NASA.GOV" elements into them, NASA would end up paying for all that bandwidth used to send and receive porn and get rich quick marketing and the latest rips of various albums and movies, etc etc etc.
====

Do you really want to pay to support OTHERS? Remember, about 10% of all users on a network consume 99% of that networks bandwidth now (according to all the major ISPs)... and that's doing nothing but porn (mostly illegal types), scams, and piracy.

We would have to completely redesign the American net. Have the [[Department of Homeland Security]] (they are the guys in charge of the "Net" now, although there are still some outstanding issues outside their turf) take over all phones and cable. You'd be taxed to pay for that... the basic level of services provided would be monitored, for security risks and to maintain quota. That's right... quota. Go over your quota, tough. No more access for you. That's the only way you'd get "fair and equal" usage. And all other networks or network activity would be illegal (that's how they made the Postal Service--- all other competing mail services were shut down, and became '''illegal''' afterward. That's why [[FedEx]] is a package delivery service, although their primarily delivery is posts/mail). With quotas, that would create big business in Identity Theft and Access stealing.

There'd be plenty of exceptions, of course. For Congressmen, Senators, White House staff, Corporations, etc. But not for you or me, the common citizen. And you'd be taxed more then the costs of the system. So that those Congressionalist could then pay for their own personal pork barrel projects. Such is the way of Democratic politics. Anytime Congress, your State, or your local City council needs more money for their projects, they could raise your "Internet Access" tax. And they would, just as they raise the tax on gasoline and alcohol whenever they want.

The US Postal service is very unique. It could not be repeated in America. Nor will it.

So long as the net is nothing but various commercial and academic ventures cooperating, you are going to have to put up with being responsible for your own access. But, replacing that with some vague service based on an old (the US Postal service is has never been required to visit you, every day. Ask people out on rural routes in small towns) and incorrect understanding of how a former monopoly works, does not seem very wise.

And... if you want to live somewhere that has no services, that's your business. You might want to get involved in your local politics though, and lobby that they provide basic internet services to the community for free. If a community on the local level wants to do that, I do not have a problem with that. That gives that community better bargaining position, which allows it to get better services, for cheaper. However, to dictate that all Americans should have a line ran to wherever they choose to live and granted their own Internet access, that would just be too expensive a burden to let you not worry about paying your ISP just so you can be a lazy, irresponsible ass and still pay your bills online.

See how that works? You are an adult. Live with the consequences of your actions, rather then try to pass them off and make everyone else pay for your mistakes. You might as well state that you don't ever want to have to pay for anything, that everything is free. You just get in line, get your bread, go get in line, get your bacon, get in line, get your heating ration, go home and have breakfast. If we are to save you from the responsibility of remembering to pay your ISP, we should save you from all responsibility==== We should save you from ever paying for anything! Or even deciding anything, because you might forget to decide! Wouldn't that be better for everyone? Just imagine!
====

You broke your contract with your ISP. You discovered your ISP has no forgiveness for such human mistakes. It would seem the solutions you are faced with is: a) change your ISP to one that treats its customers better, b) pre-pay in advance, or c) do both a and b. These solutions provide for the least number of people being adversely affected. That total is precisely: 1. These solutions are easily implemented, and have little chance of failure. These solutions can be implemented in a short amount of time, thereby preventing re-occurrence of your initial problem. Your preferred solution, however, is: Change the world to meet your needs. People affected: Everyone in America including you. Chance for failure: High. Time to implement: Over many years. Chance of problem reoccurring while solution is implemented: High. Logic does not seem to favor your solution. Consideration for your fellow humans does not seem to favor you. The amount of effort involved on your part is also at a minimum equal to changing ISPs in your solution (not counting down time while the system is implemented and debugged in your area, nor of you forgetting once again to pay your ISP while awaiting implementation of your solution in your area). So what does your solution yield? More wasted money, more crime, less individual privacy, and what benefits? I seemed to have missed that.

Remember, you proposal means:
* Increased engineering.
* Increased engineering costs.
* Increased security costs.
* Increased money from the tax payer.
That just isn't going to fly if put up to a vote before the American Tax Payer.

Universal Access is a privilege that we, as Americans, do try to extend to our fellow citizens. We do not always succeed. But the fashion that is done currently is through basic telephone access, basic cable access, and through various facilities such as public libraries. It isn't a perfect system (nothing designed by humans will be). So there is room to change and improve it. But you haven't done that. You've only floated s vague "I want my In-Ter-Net====" rant. Consider and refine your vague idea into something with actual points and features, into something that won't immediately turn into another way Congress picks the tax payers pocket for nothing in return, and we will see if such a superior idea can spread through the American collective mind. ;)
====

--StarPilot
----
I am not ranting any more. But you are still ranting about my rant.   :-)
Yes, the postal service model will never be duplicated. It was built on non competitive ground and it was heavily charged for being so by western union, att, ups, and others. I've contracted for the USPS for 3 years. I have heard all the stories about competitive and anti competitive charges. I have also worked for UPS. UPS at the time (20 years ago) was setup for parcels. Letters were hand sorted. It has been said that if the USPS were to sort mail by hand, it would take every man, woman, and child in the US to sort the days mail. There is no comparison between the USPS and its competitors. UPS has been buying warehouses in all the major metro areas to store top selling merchandise for its mail order customers. Don't even think about the USPS doing something like that. I have worked with about 250 Post Masters in small towns and I have heard all the dog bite stories also.   :-)

The USPS is paid for by stamps. No tax dollars, unless something has changed since I've been there. Its to bad that we have to assume that a public system would have to be tax based and not fee based. Its also too bad that public system models are already doomed for failure. For the belief in the loss of freedom, no one would use it.   Its also to bad the same public system theory does not work with our public roads. I guess cars have a little more symbolic feeling of freedom. Even if your sitting in rush hour traffic. :-)

--KaJoTra
----

Roads are paid for from taxes. Federal, state, local, property. It isn't truly fee based, as the majority of the funding source is not based on gasoline tax or car property tax, but rather on income tax. However, while people complain about traffic and road conditions, people still drive. Why? Because that's how they get their food and get their money (go to work). If there were more convenient ways to do that at the same economic cost, people would choose that instead.

I said [[FedEx]]. It is my understanding that UPS's core business was packages, and [[FedEx]] was post. ;-) [[FedEx]] had to sue the USPS just to be allowed to stay in business, at one time, IIRC.

You seem to still be defending your rant. So I feel its perfectly polite to counter-rant you. :-) And this is a big issue for me. I think government should be kept as small as possible, whenever reasonable. =)

There are already laws in the US that require an ISP to keep a record of every bit of data (literally) that go into and out of your computer for 7 years. These laws are ignored because the economic costs to do so is ridiculous. However, their legality has been challenged 3 times in court, and they have always been found "constitutional", as you have zero constitutional rights to digital privacy. Surprise==== Since it costs someone money to run the internet, it is a privalege, not a right. Just as driving is a privalege, not a right. Because it is a privalege, it can be monitored and regulated in a fashion that would otherwise violate a similar right. Now that you understand the US legal and government positions, do you really think that they wouldn't take advantage of the ability to monitor whoever they want, without oversight? We know that the Clinton administration did this, and it wasn't unusual. We know that the Bush administration has admitted they are doing it with anyone "of interest" to the Administration. They claim its limited to likely security risks, but that term, when used in previous administrations, meant political enemies, and their close relations/relationships.
====

There are already requirements that all ISPs provide for absolute data intercepts or they cannot offer their services in the US. If its an educational system and is subsidized by certain type of federal funds, its required to be CARNIVORE-reader. Sending encrypted messages outside the US is illegal. Sending encrypted messages across state borders is legally murky. If you want federal funding for your university or federal money for your business, all of your encryption has to have a slew of backdoors that the various US agencies can crack. This last issue has been challenged in court and been found to be illegal (violates a citizen's right to basic privacy/violates your rights with unreasonable searches). However, the Feddies are still passing over those who encrypt without skeletal keying for those who don't, unless you give them the interception and RT decryption capability that they want.

Again... in an environ where the government wants to know what ever bit is, do you think having the government provide the infrastructure and it won't take advantage of that for its own purposes?

Power corrupts. The main use of all the manned police Closed Circuit TV consoles in Britian is to watch women (chests, behinds, zoomed in up-skirt views, etc etc etc), according to the UK's own published studies. It's only by accident that they monitor a likely crime. Automated systems record the crime, but then there is no-one to see it happening and dispatch help. End results of this? More invasion of the common citizen's privacy, but zero change in their security or protection from crime. But the UK continues to expand their surveillance. Why? Is it to keep the police entertained?

The Government wants you a brainless drone, paying your taxes, making future tax payers, and causing zero trouble. That's its view of the ideal citizen. A renewable money source. It is in our interest to be paranoid of the government, because it really is out to get us. Freedom requires eternal vigilance, especially against those that are supposed to regulate and oversee your share of freedoms and privelages.

I know first hand, that every bit of data that goes over NASA infrastructure is monitored. And as NASA provides several backbone segments of the Internet in the US (at least in the majority of areas that NASA has centers), I bet some of your activity has been monitored by NASA itself. Whether it was looking up a minor piece of data or some seriously naughty activity, it doesn't matter. Thankfully, there is so much data in the data stream, that their is no way that it can be currently monitored in transit. But, at an access point, it can be monitored and filtered with relative ease, so long as major encryption isn't used. Remember, you always have to move up in what encryption strength and implementation you are using, as machines continue to grow in computing power.

Again, I ask you... do you think its wise to shut down all but government provided access to the net? Do you really want to have just one email box for you life? And to have your former employer to mess up your access to it, because they are "purging" your email of anything that might possible resemble "company information" after you leave it?

We cannot have the government provide access, and allow other forms of access. That would be unconstitutional, as it would create a disparity between people. If the government provides a basic service, your company isn't going to waste its own money to duplicate that service. But once you start using your Government assigned and created email for work, your work will then now find out that you like to see 25 year old, surgically enhanced blondes, that suck on pacifers and dress only in diapers and that you are also a die-hard collector of beanie babies and pet rocks? Do you want your boss to have unlimited access to your email? That is a very likely result of such a system. Remember, the government, when it succeeds, only manages to do something half-assed. And corps live by money, so they are going to economize wherever they can.

Think about all the ways Murphy would have fun with government provided access. And think about how all the little snots could manipulate the system to feed their power lusts. Both are guaranteeed to happen. They happen now with government systems. Ever had your email wiped out at work by an overly zealous tech? I have. Ever have your account accidently deleted because they mistyped an ID for deactivation? I have. Ever have people that weren't in your management chain dig through your data to see what you knew about them and their people? I have. Like you, I'm an government employee. Extend and calcify what happens at work to all aspects of your access. That would be government provided access.

Consider... we (NASA) get hacked every day. Our IT people discover an ID thief (an account and password sniffer) every week, and on average, that sniffer has been operating undetected for 6 months. That's straight up. I never do anything personally '''important''' from work. I never use credit cards (mine or the company) online from work. My ISP, on the other hand, rarely gets cracked, and when it does, finds it relatively quickly. When cracked, it is rarely more then that immediate node that was put at risk. When I have a problem at work, it often takes more then 9 months to get fixed for significant issues. Some issues have not yet been fixed, in over 10 years of being "worked". I know and work with the people and the network architects at my NASA center. Every once in a while, I go sit with them to watch them try to "work" these basic issues. Straight up. When I have a problem with my personal ISP, they have it handled within 4 hours on average, and have solved all issues within 3 days.

Are you seriously suggesting we implement the "NASA" system? Scale that system and service level up. You could have a problem with your access when you are 12, and still not have access when you are 35 years old====
====

Again, remember we are talking government. It doesn't bother to even password protect major fund handling systems that are accessable from the Internet. As of this day, you can go into a particular Department of Interior web site, and transfer money from it into any bank account you want. And that sort of "unauthorized" transfer is regularly happening, according to the Dept. of Interior and the Inspector General's office==== They've known about it for at least 6 years, and have yet to change it!
====

Why, oh why, would you ever want to put Big Idiot large and in charge?

--StarPilot