A SWAT team is assembled.

An AnewGo residence in Australia is identified.

The SWAT team travel secretly to Australia.

The SWAT team storm the residence.

One occupant is killed while the other occupant is calling the Local Police on a mobile phone.

The SWAT Team escape with whatever they wanted.

The Local police interview the survivor.

The Local police begin a murder invesigation, and file a report characterising it as an act of terrorism.

The Anti-terrorism Act is called into play.

Using the International resources now available the former SWAT team is hunted down.

The former SWAT team are identified and arrested at their individual residences.

They are charged with many offences. Unlawful killing. Murder. Terrorist action. Breaking and entering. the list is quite long.

Australia files for their extradition.

They proceed to Australian Court.

AnewGo was an idiot. Is this a permanent state, or a temporary one? I do hope it is only temporary.

AnewGoServerOne is hacked. A warez or pedio trader sets up an IRC server, and an FTP server. AnewGoServerOne is then used as relay and storage center in their illicit trade of data. The United Kingdoms, France, Germany, US, and Australian police forces get together, trace down the host IP. They send over an Australian team to seize AnewGoServerOne. AnewGoServerOne owners are jailed, accused of distributing warez and pedio material.

AnewGo property and personal shaked and baked. If they are lucky, the authorities will decide they didn't know they were aiding and abedding, and are set free, no harm done. But no server restored. (Less then 1% of all computer material siezed is ever returned, world wide. When they seize the machine, they seize all on-site backups, and currently 75% of all off-site backups that are legally associated with the owners/operators/property. Most sites that manage to restore do so from business associates/fan site mirrors that were not seized.)

It would be a SWAT team knocking down your door and shoving your face into your floor. Only they will be there, legally. This is the most likely happening in civil, stable, areas.

Interesting, you seem to believe in corruption as a viable mode of operation, this is the AnewGo Server http://www.whitescarver.com/wiki/index.php/AnewGo

What you describe is traditionally called a frame up. The same still applies, though the hardship is increased for the people attcked, the senario alters in detail, but basically an individual is singled out, not the nation. Also this obviously can be done to anyone now, if a hacker is so determined to wreak havoc they usually do.

I take it from the statement "temporary state" you are hostile towards this project?

I believe StarPilot is hostile toward AnewGo, why don't you tell us why? Maybe he doesn't like it because he doesn't know all the information, maybe because he doesn't like group projects, who knows. That's for him to tell.

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A good place for him to put his case is AnewGoCourt.

StarPilot simply stated the truth. AnewGo was being an idiot when he posted his rogue SWAT team attacks AnewGo story. If he didn't want to discuss how reality actually intrudes upon our medium, that's fine. He can continue to play the part of Idiot on this matter.

What I was describing is an actual happening. It's one of the common happenings. I know people in real life that had that happen.

Equal to it for happening, here's another example of the real world intruding: someone at Jim's business starts trading MP3s songs, and MP2 movies. That person taps into Jim's server to help hold and distribute his swapping. He becomes a hub for swapping, so instead of Jim's company getting a simple 'cease and desist', the FBI joins in, tapping Jim's server and watching. Finally, they decide they have enough, come in, seize all equipment. Even though the company didn't do anything wrong, it was an employee, the company is still out that server until the FBI, and Department of Justice, is done with it. And they only return 1% of all equipment they take.

Whoopsie.

I work for NASA. I had worked in the Network Applications for a bit at my site. I got to work with the Inspector General, the Secret Service, and the FBI on matters of computer intrusion.

IG tends to return the equipment it siezes. But it usually takes it about a year to get it back. Reformatted. Whoopsie==== The SS and FBI just don't return equipment.

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I used to crack systems, way back when there wasn't much else for a kid to do. I still keep an eye on crackers and what they get up to.

I'm not hostile to the project. But I think we should discuss real world happenings. Note, I could have brought up the open nature of this board. Open boards make good message drops for those that don't want to set up an easily tracable message board of their own. If such a shadowy element started using this place, we could lose it again, in an evidence seizure. As an open board, it would be easy to set up as a drop point. Again, evidence seizure.

I'm not just singing Dixie here. I'm pointing out how you can be perfectly law abiding, and still lose your server. It happens. Every day. Sometimes, they make the gent responsible for the server to disappear into custody for a while. Sometimes, they let those guys they disappeared get back out into the real world. Most of the time, the won't do anything to you, but you just never know. If you are really lucky, you get your equipment back when they are done with it.

If AnewGo wants to make up silly Hollywood examples, then I will probably dig down into my A-Team and Dukes of Hazzard and DieHard Hollywood tricks bag and respond as silly next time. There is a lot of difference in a rogue paramilitary group targetting him, and a PoliceForce going about their normal business.

'Yes this kind of activity needs to be considered. It is a pity you have decided not be a citizen at the moment, otherwise the correct course of action would be to nominate you for election to be responsible for these matters.'

Of course, I know of a few ridiculous matters where SWAT teams came bursting through on normal law abiding folks to feed them floor and drag them away for a good long time. If AnewGo is going to be worldwide, there will be the chance that China does exactly that to a Chinese member of AnewGo, for instance. Or their equipment. Just because the messages can be viewed as dissident material.

Yes I think you do have a point here. I suggest the only action may be vigilance. If material that could lead to bad consequences is discovered on AnewGo it would need to be removed. I think due to the nature of Wiki this will have to be at the discretion of the citizen or even resident who discovers it. See AnewGoErasureAct.

The example of China is more problematic and will need due consideration, because as you point out to just downloading these pages could be a very risky act there.

And how is AnewGoCourt going to do something about that? That's the physical world intruding again upon the project.

The power of AnewGoCourt is only that of the pop. of AnewGo. not a lot. We would have to grow considerably to even think about strategies to protect citizens in those positions, but Amnesty International has developed sound strategies to deal with these problems so we may be able to learn from them. http://www.amnesty.org

SP: The original point was that the physical world can and does intrude on the digital one. That was the point of contention that motivated you to first create this page, was it not? To show your viewpoint that it was outrageous of the physical world intruding?

Such events can occur. I live in an area where the weather can and has removed complete branches of the local Net. Human events can and do cross over the digital line as well. It is simply a good idea to prepare for what you can, and keep frequent backups. Stuff does happen.

Yep, point taken then. The question now is since we are agreed that we do actually live in the world where stuff does happen, how to arrange it so as not to repeat mistakes and indulge in destructive behaviour.

The problem may of occured where the abstract idea of "cyberspace" gives a false impression of something that exists outside of the world, this is obviously not the case.

Star, in no way did it hurt for AnewGo to do a SWAT invasion simulation. Every day the government creates scenarios of every countries possible way of invasion, and even AlienIntelligence invasions. Even if it is all worthless in your opinion, it doesn't hurt anyone or anything to speculate.

Ken, it certainly did hurt. First off, it wasn't a serious consideration. It was something made up as an extended straw man. It was done in a manner ridiculing the very idea the the physical could ever touch the digital. It was extreme, and in no way was based on a plausible possiblity. It was meant to shut down the discussion. It did nothing but cause ill-will, and will tend to cause future readers who have some background in IT Security or dealing with IT and Law Enforcement to dismiss AnewGo and all of his/the project's viewpoint from henceforth this page.

Additionally, look how long it took the original author to understand that there are common situations where events elsewhere will logically and legally impact upon the "local" digital realm and how that can indeed impact further.

Our statements will cause others to form opinions about our whole framework. If I am an expert in automatic transmissions, and you go off telling me how putting sawdust into the tranny fluid will improve my transmission's performance and lifespan, I know you are either and idiot or a crook. As a human, that knowledge will color all my future viewings of all your future statements and positions. This will remain so until you once again speak about a subject that I know well. And if it has been long enough that I feel strongly that you are a crook or an idiot, I will view any behaviour out of that expected bounds as an exception, and not revise my opinion of you. Remember, we project and interpret the future based on our past experiences and interactions. ---StarPilot

I think the confusion comes about from an artifical distinction, that the digital world is somehow not part of the "real world". Of course it is part of the "real world", and laws and actions effect digital recordings every day. The real issue here is, how effective is a distributed nation as a stratigic defense in itself?

An answer might be found in one of the earlier virtual nations: The jewish state, which operated in a distributed format for possibly a thousand years or so. This prooved quite precarious under the laws of the Third Reich in Germany, but obviously quite resiliant and has manifested itself as the modern state of Isreal.

It is possible that much of the conflict in the world today may have been avoided if the jewish nation opted for a distrubited format, which pre-internet may have been inconceivable but not impossible.